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| What is Protagoras in relation to the Republic |
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| Earth afloat in Okeanos (water). This is the fundamental substance |
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| It is unnecessary fix upon the fundamental substance: the Boundless Something |
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| There is a single fundamental substance, boundless in extent. it supports all things/many worlds |
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Everything is in flux. river Paradox. Sceptical about the senses.
Everything comes from conflict: "War is common, and justice strife" |
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Teachers of rhetoric
Emphasise distinction between Physis and Nomos (nature and human law)
Sceptical about certain knowledge (inadequacy/fallibility of senses, Heraclitean flux)
No human laws/customs unshakeable because they are rooted in Physis. |
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| Protagoras' core principals |
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There are two arguments on every subject, on opposite sides and at equal strength.
Extreme relativism ("Of all things a measure is man") |
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| Ideas in Protagoras in relation to the Republic |
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"Man is the measure of all things" - Democracy (mob rule)
Virtue can be taught, but is hard to learn (lifetime training - Philosopher King)
Art as a copy of the true thing's Form (leading people away from it)
Transformation/flux isn't improvement (we should approach the world of Forms)
Virtues as one (Form of the Good)
Hedonism (Forms are a higher pleasure than other things, scale of pleasure)
Reason as a source of morality (knowing the Form of the Good, tripartite soul) |
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| Plato's attitudes to the Sophists |
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| Don't teach anything but "the beliefs of the people expressed by themselves in their assemblies" - not Wisdom |
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| What does Protagoras claim to teach? Plato's response. |
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1. Make you a better man? Teaching virtue?
2. But Virtue is a constant thing (grasping its form): can't be taught by Sophists. Can it even be taught at all?
3. Experts are called to give information on their subjects. Everybody can give information on Virtue (speak at assemblies). Virtue cannot be taught: only grasped through self-reflection (Pericles could not impart his wisdom to his sons). However, it is not just a matter of opinion. |
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| Plato's view of knowledge |
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'Episteme' (Thaetetus)
Stable
Unchangeing
Self- validating
Internally consistent
Giving a justified account (logos) of the nature of a thing - defining the reason for something
Justification is relative to the subject
Movement from Doxa (opinion) to Episteme (true belief)
"What makes X an X?" |
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| Protagoras' grounds for the knowledge of virtue |
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Myth:
1. people originally had no knowledge of how to run a city
2. people gain ideas of what is good as soon as they establish political communities
3. The Nomos (law) is a result of a social contract (relativistic)
4. Undesirable characteristics unwillingly gained are not punished, absence of good characteristics willingly created is. Punishment is therefore a measure of showing what is to be blamed/praised.
Is this the case? not if you subscribe to the Theory of Forms. |
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| Plato's Theory of Forms (background) |
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- No singular reference in Plato's dialogues
- Developed in early to middle period dialogues
- Phaedo: the senses are not a reliable source of knowledge - our world is a representation of Forms. The body deceives thought. Existence is revealed through thought. Thought is best when free of the body (perception of the soul). |
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Before birth, the soul exists in the world of Forms and can perceive them. It is embodied as a punishment.
The soul remembers what it learned in the world of forms. This memory can be accessed though asking the right questions.
Philosophy keeps the soul focused on the Forms and not the world (allows it to return). |
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Forms must exist in some way (somewhere to turn our thoughts - Parmenides)
As objects of proper knowledge, we must already know of them.
They are recognised by the intellect/soul
They are perfect
They are unchanging and eternal
They exist independently of the world
They are recollected in thi world
They are True Reality
Souls/intellects are eternal, but trapped in mortal bodies |
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1. Generality of predication: Objects can be predicated. This implies an object form for the predicate (white table - form of whiteness). ISSUE: Why are Forms and predicates different?
2. Implicit recognition of standard: a predicate can be applied to many things: one unified predicate Form? All horses have Horseness. PROBLEM: degrees of predication (shades of brown - division of Forms).
Argument from learning: How is it possible to bring about new knowledge/understanding through dialogue? Teacher as midwife (Thaetetus) |
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| Response to Protagorean relativism |
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1. If all views are equally true, how can Protagoras justify charging to teach? No-one can be an expert.
2. Protagoras: A teacher is a person who can change you.
Sick and healthy people have different senses of taste. But it's meaningless to call one wise and the other not.
The sick man needs to change to a better state (better to be in this state). A teacher does this. Doesn't make someone know truth instead of falsehoods (impossible).
This better state is decided by the opinions of society, unless society is unsound. If this is the case, the wise man will endeavour to make it better (teaching).
3. Socrates' response: Expressing an assumption that some are wiser than others.
Total relativism means that everybody is equal. Also, what about opposing claims? (judo flip) NOT A FLAW OF THE FORMS.
Perception provides subjective knowledge. If subjective knowledge = Truth, then Truth = subjective. Contradicting Truths are possible. Thus sense data is restricted to Phenomena and not Noumena. |
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Body =/= self, unlike Plato
Doubted existence of physical realm, Plato merely claimed there were higher levels of existence
Reason as true source of knowledge
Refutation of total epistemic scepticism (cogito and forms) |
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Knowledge come from perception (unlike Plato)
Perception does not allow us to engage with ultimate reality (B: phenomenology, P: relativism) |
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HOW CAN WE DEFINE KNOWLEDGE
Philosopher as midwife
Knowledge as sense perception: impressions in relation to other things - wind has different temperatures to different people. Heraclitean flux: there is no fixed meaning/nature to things, only relationships (Ontological Relativism)
Protagoras as an Epistemological relativist.
Having knowledge =/= having it to hand. mind is like a birdcage - full of birds (facts) flying around. Need to grasp one. Also falsehoods in there too. SOCRATES DISCARDS THE METAPHOR - ABSURD
True judgement =/= true knowledge: you can be persuaded, but not know (lawyer and jury).
Knowledge as true judgement with an account - Logos -JTB.
But what is an account? Dividing up the whole into its elements? Is the whole divisible: syllables and letters (can know one without knowing the other). Absurd - can always break down into syllables. The whole cannot be known without knowing the part (musicians and notes). An account is breaking down knowledge into its constituent parts.
But if you write a word and misplace a letter, surely you still know the word! Socrates agrees.
Perhaps Logos is knowing how a thing is different to other things. But this requires acquisition of knowledge itself. THEY FAIL TO REACH AN ANSWER |
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